Ethan Miller - Getty Images
Manny Pacquiao's fight with Juan Manuel Marquez in November was among the most controversially-scored in recent memory. (Photo by Ethan Miller/Getty Images)
Ryan Bivins returns to Bad Left Hook this afternoon with a look at the current, often controversial scoring system in boxing.
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Background Information:
Once upon a time in a galaxy not so far away boxing wasn't scored on points, but rather rounds. In the last ~100 years has scoring really gotten any better? Yes and no. On one hand now knocking a fighter down is worth more. But if a round is even aside from a flash knockdown, does that really suggest 10-8 more than if someone out classed his opponent from beginning to end with no knockdown? Furthermore it's not as if knockdowns used to be totally irrelevant. They determined if a person won the round, and if the total amount of rounds won by each fighter were even the person with the most knockdowns got the nod. And speaking of even rounds, judges had no problem calling them even. Seeing a judge score 3 rounds even in a 12 round fight today is like seeing a judge score a 10-6 round; it's not likely to happen. At one point it was not uncommon to see half the rounds of a fight scored even. And why shouldn't they be if they were razor thin? Today you see people giving fighters close rounds simply because they gave other close rounds to the other fighter. Basically they lie just to make it "more fair".
Recall Glenn Trowbridge scoring Pacquiao-Marquez III for Pacquiao by 4 points yet giving Marquez the last round. It's not to say there was no case for Marquez winning the 12th, but out of all the close rounds to score for Marquez he picked one that even people who thought Marquez was robbed blind had Pacquiao edging. And he probably did it because he didn't want his final scorecard to read 9-3 Pacquiao in a fight he knew was close. If you have to lie to make something fair, that suggests the system is unfair. No way should a dominant round and a razor thin round amount to the same thing. And back when judges felt comfortable calling even rounds, they often didn't.

Now don't get me wrong, the round system isn't the best either. In a 12 round bout a fighter that scored a knockdown in each of the 5 rounds he dominated should not be able to lose to a guy that merely out boxed him for 7 of the rounds. It's why important championship fights in the early 20th century were still often fights to the finish (or simply so long it would be highly unlikely both fighters made it to the finish line). But with championship fights being limited to 15 rounds by the 1910s/1920s, boxing looked to improved scoring.
[ Related: Pacquiao vs Marquez Scoring Breakdown ]
But a 5 or 10 point system didn't show up in a heavyweight championship fight until the vacant title meeting between Floyd Patterson and Archie Moore in 1956. However, The United States, much less the world, did not embrace this new concept unanimously and switched between round and point systems into the 1970s. The last heavyweight championship bout fought on the round system was the rematch between Muhammad Ali and Leon Spinks (despite the first fight being on the 10 point system). Both bouts occurred in 1978. So when you think about it, the current scoring system in boxing isn't exactly the longest running. If it were to change again, don't be surprised.
The Bottom Line:
The 10 point must system, assuming no knockdowns or multi-point rounds take place, makes the following hard to swallow scenarios a reality:
If all you're seeing is 12 point margin = "robbery" and 2 point margin = "close fight, can't argue", you're ignoring what actually transpired in the ring and reducing an art form to numbers next to names. Whether you like them or not swing rounds are common place in boxing, and sometimes they make up the entire fight. And due to the 10 point must system and judges' reluctance to call even rounds, an honest person may just score every swing round to one fighter. By honest person I mean someone who doesn't split scoring close rounds just to be "fair". For those of us who comply with the rules we are given, we must acknowledge that a shutout can actually be a pretty even fight. And just to show this actually does happen, recall 2011's Edwin Rodriguez vs Will Rosinsky.
(Photo by Tom Casino/Showtime)
Despite the even nature of Rodriguez vs Rosinsky, all three judges scored every round to Rodriguez. No one called it robbery of the year even though many felt Rosinky won or at least deserved a draw. What did many people actually consider 2011 robbery of the year? Paul Williams MD12 Erislandy Lara. Granted Lara was robbed, he did in fact take multiple rounds off and just let Williams out work him.
And despite the myth that suggested Willie Pep once won a round without throwing a punch, you do have to throw punches to win rounds. The official result was a robbery, but it's not one of the worst robberies I've ever seen. Even though Lara was clearly robbed of a victory more than Rosinky, it's more appropriate to claim Rodriguez shut Rosinsky out than to claim Lara shut out Williams, regardless if the final result (not the score) seems more fair. And if you concede that you must also concede that fair scorecards, ones you actually agree with, don't necessarily reflect the true margin of victory. The fact of the matter is if one man dominated 7 rounds with no KDs, narrowly lost 5, and ended up losing a decision, he still got robbed blind. Conversely, if one man dominated 5 rounds with no KDs and only debatably won the other 7, he may not necessarily be able to justify a robbery.
It's just the uncommon sense of modern boxing.
Coming Soon...Would Scoring be Better with More or Less Points? - A New Scoring System Proposed
0 recs | 29 comments
So do you feel that they should drop the 10 point system entirely in favor of the rounds system?
Kory Kitchen - January 23, 2012
Wait and see
Next article will cover what I think would be best ;)
Ryan.Bivins - January 23, 2012
The easy fix
The fix for boxing scoring system is to introduce 9.5 into scoring. That is the only fraction introduced. So for those close rounds that one fighter barley squeaks out score it a 10-9.5. Scoring for dominate round without a knock down 10-9. Knock down still a 10-8. Try going through the close fights and this will give a truer picture of the fight. You also distinguish between a fighter that scrapped punch for punch but barley lost the round and one that’s dominated.
etchom - January 30, 2012
Well said. I must confess though that every other proposed system I’ve seen I’ve found even more unsatisfying than the current setup, but nevertheless I look forward to the next part.
bachwards - January 23, 2012
I agree…though the current system is flawed, I’m not sure how much better proposed alternatives would be. Nice writeup though…look forward to reading the next installment.
KidSleez - January 23, 2012 via Android app
I’m very curious to see what’s proposed later in this series. The 10-point must system is flawed, but better execution of it (more even rounds) would go a long ways.
El Destruyo - January 23, 2012
More even rounds, more 10-8/10-7 rounds for serious beatings administered. Nicking a round and beating the crap out of a guy for three minutes but not knocking him down is just not the same.
Scott Christ - January 23, 2012
I would like to say that I’m not sure I understood the example given here. Part of the problem is that I didn’t see the Rodriguez fight, but it I’m also confused by a few things. First:
Okay, so you’re saying that this was a robbery or not?
And then:
So, Rosinky/Rodriguez robbery or not?
Apprentice - January 23, 2012
Rosinsky/Rodriguez was no robbery. The scorecards just exposed how flawed the system is. Rosinsky didn’t dominate any rounds, and got unlucky.
Ryan.Bivins - January 23, 2012
I understand your point, but honestly, I think the more finely divided the rounds are, the better the representation of the actual fight (abstract and systematic representation on paper is, after all, what scoring systems are intended to do). I think that this is why the pseudo-precision of “CompuBox” is so seductive: it has “Compu” in it’s name. which implies, completely falsely, that the system is computerized and dispassionate in its tally of different types of punches.
Granted that all scoring (by humans, anyway) will be subjective, the round system seems to me to be much more vulnerable to subjective impression. A an overhauled and better point system, whatever that might be, would be worth examining in some depth.
DrRck - January 23, 2012
You could put any number of scoring methods in boxing and there will still be ‘robberies’/fights where the promoter-backed fighter seems inexplicably gets the win. The round system would make no difference either.
Secretly I think HBO would love to have Compubox decide the fight, as they often seem to use it as the deciding factor.
Seriously though, I think that altering the scoring for 10-8s for ‘serious beatings’ would lead to even more robberies, due to ‘phantom’ beatings that only judges will see.
Say boxer X clearly wins 7 rounds, but boxer Y clearly wins 5 with no knockdowns on either side. The judges think that boxer Y dominated boxer X in those rounds scoring them 10-8, but boxer X’s rounds are scored 10-9. Boxer Y wins.
There is no cure or answer. I would like all judges to submit a written report to the public after title fights (or ‘Big’ fights) explaining their decisions. I think a bit of transparency that isn’t open scoring would help a bit, but hell, this is boxing.
Eoin_not_ian - January 23, 2012
Actually, I think that all judges should submit a summary explanation of their scoring after every fight. The questions are, to whom, how long would it take, and what might be the consequences?
I think another, very serious and systemic problem that we’ve all had a go at here has to do with the judges. Whether its rounds or points, it’s a person sitting there deciding the matter, and some of these decisions have been spectacularly bizarre.
DrRck - January 23, 2012
The best solution
Is more public disclosure and more accountability. I’d like to see one athletic commission test it out. Make the judges give a 10 words or less description of why they scored a round the way they did (e.g. “good body work hurt more”), and make all scorecards and descriptions publicly available on the commission’s website.
I’m not sure HOW much it would improve things, but it should make things a little better.
Once public companies needed to start disclosing executive comp, most but not all of them started to curtail the obscene bonuses many execs were receiving. Plus, it made it simple for the IRS to start levying certain excise taxes (the penalty portion) on those who kept paying their execs in a way that most folks would think is just plain wrong. A system where there’s some real disclosure might make judge more accountable and would also make it easier for the commission to suspend dirty or just plain incompetent judges.
Brickhaus - January 23, 2012 via mobile
Oh and I agree on your views on compubox entirely, which was the main reason I replied, but then forgot to include in the text!
Eoin_not_ian - January 23, 2012
Thanks. I can think of two solutions to this problem, one high-tech and clean but beyond anything anyone can implement; the other, one we used to have,but which resulted in some terrible events.
One, someone invents some sort of skin-tight body suit composed of pressure sensors that can record both the contact of a punch and its power. These results would then be tallied to determine who hit more, and who hit harder, and then some scale would weigh which was more effective.
Two, just have them fight until one goes down, and the guy still standing is the winner..
Maybe someone has a better, and cleaner and more “surgical,” idea.
DrRck - January 23, 2012
There is no perfection
Your always going to have debated decs’s with subjective opinions
What you have to do is educate judges better. And also clarify excatly what they are looking for. Too much, room for adjustment, for want of a better phrase…
Sweet science - January 23, 2012
I Agree
There is no perfect system for this. We will always have a little controversy, but the best way to prevent serious issues is to better train/educate judges on how to score with the current system.
Boxing is more subjective than other sports, but other sports still have some of the same scoring issues in a sense. Have you ever watched a football game where a team wins by 20 and you think that it was a really-hard fought, close game that seemed a lot closer than the score implied? Of course, we all have. Some teams will dominate the total yardage, time of possession, have fewer penalties, etc. but still lose if, say, the other team just has a couple lucky plays or something.
Kory Kitchen - January 23, 2012
There needs to be a point system for the judges...
There will have to be away where the best judges are scoring the bigger fights. I’m for a new scoring system, if it can some how nullify controversial subjectivity. But for right now, bad scoring should be dealt with the removal of judges from big fights.
Clove_art - January 23, 2012
More judges
The way to differentiate between a close round and a dominant round with no knockdowns is to have more judges. I’m not talking 2 or 3 more judges, I want a total of 15 judges watching/scoring the fight. Having 15 judges will effectively eliminate the one terrible card from deciding the fight and it will force the commissions to recruit new/young people to be judges. In terms of scoring, a big round would be around 12 judges (10-9) vs. 3 judges (9-10) whereas a close round would be closer to 8 judges vs. 7 judges.
Waldo Rastel - January 23, 2012
If they did that they would have to hire a crapload of new judges when one considers how many fights are on one card, and how many could take place all over a country on any given Saturday night. Just to play devil’s advocate, I could see how that might lead to them rushing people in that are not ready yet because they will need so many.
Kory Kitchen - January 23, 2012
These changes wouldn’t happen overnight obviously, but it would force them to hire and train a bunch of new judges. By doing this, these commissions would have to revamp how they hire new judges and how they train new judges. Also you could make some exceptions like only 10 round and higher fights need to have 15 judges, all others just need to have more than 5.
Waldo Rastel - January 23, 2012
They could make 15 judges for title fights or big events
And less for the undercard bouts…..
Sweet science - January 24, 2012
I can’t possibly explain how awful an idea I think this is. Talk about overkill.
Scott Christ - January 24, 2012
Lots of ideas here
Just read through them all, glad no one proposed what I’m going to write about. :)
Ryan.Bivins - January 23, 2012
If you suggest something like bringing amateur scoring to the professionals I am going to kick you right between the legs :)
Kory Kitchen - January 23, 2012
I’m not sure, but I think I just read that amateur boxing has done away with the point system for next olympics…
Apprentice - January 24, 2012
Recc'd
Sweet science - January 24, 2012
My cup protector from Ringside will do the trick!
My jewels are safe. But it’s not going to be any kind of amateurish click system. That’s basically like letting compubox score fights. Honestly I’m not going to delve much into how judges interpret what they see. I’m just going to outline a way to relate what they’re seeing to a reasonable score. Currently I don’t think boxing does that much. The reason it doesn’t will be uncovered in the next article.
Ryan.Bivins - January 24, 2012
Instead of a 10 point system
A 100 point for each?
Or a 10 point for each criteria per round (So a max of 40 per round)
Sweet science - January 24, 2012
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