Al Bello - Getty Images
Amir Khan and Lamont Peterson had a great fight in December, and barely made a dent in U.S. sports headlines. (Photo by Al Bello/Getty Images)
James Foley returns to Bad Left Hook tonight with a look at where the sweet science stands in the American sports culture.
Boxing entered 2012 somewhere behind golf, auto racing and poker (gasp!) on the American sports hierarchy. Okay, poker's not really a sport (neither are the other two), but the point is, the sweet science has seen better days. Once upon a time, the heavyweight champion of the world was the most famous athlete on the planet. Now it's "some dude from somewhere who I think was dating that chick from Heroes."
Anyone go into work on December 12th and catch the buzz from that fabulous Amir Khan-Lamont Peterson fight? Me neither. If you asked the crowd whether they'd seen it, you'd likely have been greeted with uncomfortable silence and a few awkward stares. "What is that, some UFC thing...? Nah, I don't watch that crap." "No, it's boxing." "Oh....well, I don't watch that either."
(Note-the dated reference to the Khan fight belies the fact that I started working on this two months ago. Relax.)
More people in the U.S. have heard of the 200th best guy in the National Football League than the 3rd best fighter in the world. Kris Humphries is a better known athlete than Andre Ward. And by the way, that was true before Mr. Humphries had anything to do with the lovely Ms. Kardashian and her sumptuous rump. Boxing is a niche sport, followed avidly by just a tiny fraction of the population. So-called major fights are being watched by well under 1% of the country. As boxing fans, we're all 1%ers baby! Unfortunately, we're not powerful enough to warrant protests...well, until the day society decides to outlaw this brutal pastime.
Obviously we would all like to see the sport grow and gain back even a fraction of the viewership it once had. In many ways, I'm not sure it's possible. There are so many other sports-entertainment options these days and there are a good number of our fellow human beings who simply find combat sports rather distasteful and always will. Some people find boxing boring. And millions of people tune in to watch cars drive around in a circle for four hours every whatever-day-that-shit-happens-‘cause-I-don't-really-know. There's no accounting for taste. But I still believe there's a massive market out there that would follow boxing, if it weren't so difficult to follow. Here's a few of the roadblocks facing the potential boxing fan:
Scheduling
Major fights are typically on Saturday nights, with a rare Friday night offering. Either way, those are the two prime weekend nights. What is the main demographic for sports? Young men. What do young men tend to do on weekend nights? Go out drinking with their boys and chase after young women. Why the hell would you showcase your product on the two nights of the week least likely to have your target audience sitting in front of a television set?
Now some might be saying, that's not true, what about guys with girlfriends or wives, or non-drinkers? Even worse! Try selling that explanation to your girlfriend. "Uh...I'm gonna be indisposed this weekend because I've got to watch a fight." See how far that flies. You might get a couple get-out-of-jail-free cards and probably end up using them on the big pay-per-view events, often major letdowns that make you wonder why you even bother. And of course when epic bloodbaths like Victor Ortiz-Andre Berto or James Kirkland-Alfredo Angulo are going down on regular HBO, you'll be completely oblivious since you're at "couple's night", playing Trivial Pursuit sipping Malbec wondering why no one's gotten a new Trivial Pursuit set since 1989. Then you'll reflect at the end of the year and say "I used to like boxing, but it kinda sucks nowadays" based on the sample size of Manny Pacquiao-Shane Mosley and Floyd Mayweather-Ortiz.
Massive gaps between fights
Promoters and networks are always looking for boxing's next star. A talented prospect may fight five or six times a year, sometimes more often. Then he becomes a contender, right on the cusp of that big "championship" opportunity, the breakthrough everyone was hoping for. Then he falls off the face of the planet.
Because you certainly can't risk a young, talented fighter actually losing a fight until there's a massive payday involved. Not with so much riding on the prospect of that undefeated record and flawless pedigree. So until there's a good deal worth the risk, the fighter is inactive. A Chad Dawson fight is not a season of The Sopranos. I'm not gonna wait a year to find out what happens next. Well sure, I will, because I'm a fanatic. But it's ridiculous to expect the general public will develop any kind of a relationship with a fighter if they do happen to be home on a Saturday night and catch one of those infrequent appearances.
Does it really take ten weeks to train for a fight? Do fights require multi-month promotional tours? Do they really? Because that's what promoters tell us? The television networks have created a monster by grossly overpaying guys to be on their airwaves and creating an inflated market value for fighters that couldn't draw ten of their cousins to watch them fight Kimbo Slice in their backyard. HBO only has so much money and so many time slots in a year.
A fighter who makes six or seven figures to fight on the network often finds himself in this predicament: wait six to nine months to get another similar payday or take an interim fight for far less money where a loss would cost you that next big coup. Some fighters, like Andy Lee, take the risk and fight hapless opponents in small venues for a fraction of what they make on HBO. These are stay-busy fights. But most fighters who have been on the big networks, who are winning, won't fight without them. This system is at least partly responsible for the long layoffs that I think make it hard for new fighters to connect with audiences. A fighter looking spectacular goes a long way. Frequency might be even more important.
Not knowing who's the best
For a long time, I argued that it didn't matter to casual fans that there were four sanctioning bodies awarding so-called "championships". I thought people would mostly just want to see good fights and not really care about the fact that something like twelve out of the seventeen weight classes have vacancies when it comes to legitimate champions. But after a certain number of times finding myself saying stuff like "well, he's the #1 fighter but not the champion" and "he's a champion, but not the champion" and "er...well, boxing doesn't really work like that", it became obvious to me that in fact, this is a point that turns off a lot of potential fans.
I could go on and on but I don't want to completely slaughter everyone's buzz by running through the laundry list of things that have tarnished our fair sport. The truth is, I dug up this half-written skeleton of an article and basically said "F*** it....let's gitter done!" and at some point realized why I never finished it in the first place.
Because where do you even start? How do you tell a guy "you should fight every three months, and if the network won't televise it, screw ‘em, put it on yourself. Forget the fact you'll be taking a 98% pay-cut and risking a ton of money if you lose." How do you reconcile guys like Pawel Wolak and Delvin Rodriguez fighting for ten grand each on ESPN while Tim Bradley and Devon Alexander make seven figures fighting on HBO? I understand Bradley-Alexander was a bigger fight (in theory)...but 100 times bigger? How can you dare suggest that maybe only big-time events should be on Saturday night and smaller fights (including about 75% of what passed on HBO last year) would be better served on a Tuesday or Thursday? And certainly it's unfair for me to decree that the lone mandate of the powers that be (promoters, networks, alphabets etc.) should be making the best fights with the goal of one champion in each weight class, when that would run counter to the very purpose of some of those institutions existence.
Alphabets obviously don't want a unified champion. Promoters exist to make themselves and their fighters the most money possible. Networks are the only group with any real motive to want the best fights and they rarely put their foot down to make it happen. The relationships are so entrenched, the system so embedded, things aren't likely to change anytime soon.
All that said, I still do everything I can to encourage people to follow boxing, spreading the word on good fights and preaching the high quality of the product at its very best. Boxing is not dead or dying. But as long as more people are watching the World Series of Poker than would have watched the Ortiz-Berto rematch, something's not right with this picture.
1 recs | 63 comments
I agree mostly, but I don’t necessarily care if people like boxing or not, I don’t mind it when someone talks to me about the Toronto Maple Leafs, and then asks me what I did this weekend and I tell them I watched Rigondeaux K.O Ramos. It’s a two way street, I don’t care about the Maple Leafs because every season, every game, every trade always yields the same results… A team may win. But Boxing is different – A star rises and falls, and you hope it lives on forever like sports teams do with their small transitions that seemingly make little change, but you accept the reality and love it anyways.
The UFC comment his the nail on the head. I watched JCCJ/Rubio at work and everyone was oblivious to the fact that people still watch boxing. It’s also funny to see people that watch regular sports, or other combat sports try to understand boxing. Seeing someone’s face when you tell them that a belt is fought for virtually every weekend is priceless. It’s a big confusing world, but I can’t say I hate the exclusiveness of it, and I’m uncertain it needs to change.
Then again – Will youth still engage in boxing? Or is it just a move to MMA?
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
People liking a form of entertainment and being willing to pay for it is the greatest reason any of it exists. I never really understand this attitude — if they lose much more of the fanbase (and they have lost a lot even compared to, like, 2003), then why would anyone televise this stuff?
Scott Christ - February 15, 2012
Well, it’s mostly just a given in my peer group. I still hope the large groups of boxing fans buy PPVs, but I really don’t mind being one of 100 guys in my region of 400,000 that know anything about boxing.
I guess I’m taking advantage of my assumptions that Latin Americans will always love boxing and fuel the sport.
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
Why do you think boxing has lost fan base since 2003?
I know you don’t say things without a good reason, so I am genuinely curious to know what you are basing this claim on. I don’t follow the stats as closely as you, but my guess would have been that boxing has pretty much been treading water in the United States since 2003, and that audiences for boxing have improved since then in other parts of the world, such as the Philippines.
Matt Miller - February 15, 2012
In 2003, Lewis vs Klitschko on HBO had 7 million viewers. Same year, a pre-superstardom Manny Pacquiao and Marco Antonio Barrera did over 3 million viewers.
In 2007, when Joe Calzaghe and Mikkel Kessler fought on HBO (in the afternoon, mind you, from Cardiff) the fight did 1.59 million viewers. This was the worst-ever number for an edition of World Championship Boxing. HBO freaked out — I mean it was full-on panic mode for them.
In 2011, on a heavily-advertised free preview weekend, Andre Berto and Victor Ortiz did about 1.5 million viewers. This was, by that point, cause for celebration. 1.8 million a month later for Hopkins-Pascal II might as well have been the 4th of July to some people.
A lot of viewers have been lost over the years, and more than anything rising in the last two years or so (which is what Greenburg tried to sell, and what HBO went along with selling, and still do to a degree), they have simply stopped falling.
The boxing viewership in the U.S. in the last decade or so had the glide path of a brick. As for viewers in the Philippines, what happens when Manny Pacquiao retires? Are they boxing fans, or just Manny Pacquiao fans? Are they going to follow someone like Nonito Donaire or AJ Banal?
Scott Christ - February 15, 2012
That Calzaghe-Kessler is no longer even close to the worst number for a World Championship Boxing, obviously.
Scott Christ - February 15, 2012
And on the last point, re: Philippines, other areas of boxing fandom: I agree it’s very important and very good that the sport is globally popular. But the Scorpions are still popular in Germany, too, and they aren’t being paid big money for U.S. TV specials. While I’ve no issue with bringing up the global popularity of boxing as without question a good thing, it will not have an impact on what happens for U.S. TV were numbers to get worse again.
Scott Christ - February 15, 2012
HWs were more visible in 2003, but the other PPV numbers paint a more mixed picture, no?
I guess living in Brooklyn, it is harder for me to see what others here are seeing (see my post below).
Matt Miller - February 15, 2012
What about the viewers in Mexico and Puerto Rico? South America?
I admit I only have anectdotal reasons for believing so, but it seems to me like boxing is as popular as ever in most places south of the border.
Matt Miller - February 15, 2012
also, what about Canada?
Matt Miller - February 15, 2012
Where it’s been copiously popular since my grandfather, b. 1890, was a kid, and where it still is today.
BoxAnne - February 15, 2012
Well, maybe parts of Canada. I didn’t meet a single boxing fan in my four years in Ontario. I’m sure they exist. Rama puts on a few cards year round and stuff.
Apprentice - February 16, 2012
Agree on that, here in Alberta although you can catch all the fights on tv its hard to find boxing fans and bars rarely have any fights on tv. Even on tv, anoyingly HBO Canada always transmits their fights with a 2hr delay, so you those nights I have to stay away from the internet if I don’t want to read any spoilers (only PPV fights are transmitted live).
leo_solis - February 16, 2012
for Apprentice and leo_solis
when I say Canada, I’m always rather childishly thinking Quebec Province. We went up every year when i was a kid to see the French relatives up north of Montreal, that’s “Canada” to me, please forgive my highly limited perception. I agree one doesn’t hear much of boxing elsewhere in Canada, though I have watched a a couple of minor internet ppvs streamed from Ontario.
BoxAnne - February 16, 2012
Reading all these posts below, I in all sincerity have to ask why so many of us, as boxing fans, equate the health of boxing in the US with the health of boxing in general?
DrRck - February 15, 2012
More $ in the US than most other places.
BoxAnne - February 16, 2012
Good write up. Like you I don’t think it may be possible to return boxing to its former glory in the US, or at the very least I don’t see any clear way to do it in the near future (say within the next 10 years). I agree with all your suggestions, and in an ideal world you’d like to implement all of them at the same time, but being an imperfect worls I think some baby steps may be necessary first.
I think one thing to be considered if some sort of plan would be implemented is that I believe you basically have two pools of potential fans in the US. One is former fans who got tired of all the crap in boxing (and there’s tons of it), and decided to move on to other sports, and the second group is naive fans who really have never been exposed to it in any serious way.
I think if the interest is to attract those who have followed the sport in the past, or know about boxing but simply couldn’t tolerate the crap anymore, changing how the boxers are ranked, the fighters matched, unification of championships, and things like that would probably be serve better without having to deal too much with scheduling issues.
On the other hand, for naive fans I think a better approach might be to simply expose them as much as possible to the sport, as imperfect as it is. Even if in its current state it may be complicated at first to distinguish “A champion” from “The Champion” in many weight classes, by simply being exposed to it and the fighters in a countinous basis, I think the complications might be overcome. So instead of trying to streamline all the sanctioning bodies, the energy could be spent improving the scheduling system.
In the end I think something that boxing would need if it wants to grow back in the US is find a way to get out of the PPV system. It would probably mean a lot less money for everyone involved in the short, and maybe even mid term future, but I think long term they may actually make more thanks to all the money that endorsments and network tv can bring once you build a big fanbase.
leo_solis - February 15, 2012
The thing i notice most when talking about Boxing to non-fans is that they get confused as to how there can be so many champions. Once they hear how many belts are available for a weight and how many weights there are people seem to get less and less interested. Then there is the whole Mayweather v Paqiaou thing that people expect to happen.. Its enough in itself to get people interested in Golf or Soccer or something
Bald-Eagle - February 15, 2012
This.
I can remember as a kid, I could name every WBC /WBA champion. Nowadays, as a hard-core fan, I have no clue…………..is "he" a champion, interim champion, interim interim champion…………………..it a big fuck mess.
Boxing is in my blood, but if I was young again (teens/early 20’s), I’m sure I would follow MMA.
DPlainview - February 15, 2012
I’m able to keep up with the whole title mess, but obviously a significant portion of my brain is dedicated entirely to keeping up with all that crap. And it shouldn’t be. I used to think the issue was overstated; I no longer believe that it is. as someone else said here, it’s too much to ask of fans to keep up with 100 or so “champions.”
Scott Christ - February 15, 2012
I agree it’s a mess, the million champions thing, but what I suggest to non-boxing people who’s reason it is to ignore or diminish the whole sport is that the belt thing is different now, the sanctioning bodies are more like leagues, and the belts are more like some gym’s awards—ignore them and watch the good fights. I tell them it’s not about the belts, it’s about the fights.
BoxAnne - February 15, 2012
I’m in my mid-twenties, and became a true boxing fan after first becoming a major MMA fan. I was aware of boxing growing up, watched a few fights, but never really got into it. Mainly, because it was just never on TV.
In college I found MMA, became a major die-hard fan, and a friend who is a big MMA fan was also into boxing, and I got into it through him. Now, I’m big fans of both sports, seeing them really as two sides to the same coin – full, natural combat vs limited combat with all training devoted to one branch of fighting.
As far as my generation goes, my friends are nearly all sports fans but almost none of them watch boxing, and few regularly watch MMA. However, from a casual perspective, the awareness of MMA is much higher than that of boxing in my age group. All of my friends could tell you most UFC champions, but if told to tame three current boxers they’d likely say Pacquiao, Mayweather, and De La Hoya. However, when they watch fights, everyone loves it, but they’d never seek it out themselves – they’ll just watch it if I tell them there’s a fight on that’s worth watching.
That said, all my friends could easily becoming boxing fans if it were just on TV more. The Saturday night timeframe is terrible, as noted in the article Fridays and Saturdays are bar nights. They also need to boxing on basic cable on a regular basis. It doesn’t have to be for the belts, but it needs to be skilled, entertaining, and just THERE. It takes a HUGE jump to go from casual fan who likes a sport to die-hard who seeks out when the sport is on and makes sure to watch it. Boxing requires that jump, successful sports, including MMA, do not.
The UFC uses a similar stretegy to the WWE – frequent free shows to gain viewership, hype up the PPVs on those free shows, and then sell your big fights on PPV. That’s a proven method, it works for a real sport and a fake one, and ensures that you’ll have new fans all the time that you can try to turn into PPV customers.
The project is, of course, the fractured boxing landscape. Implementing the UFC/WWE strategy to convert casual sports fans into PPV buyers would mean every boxing organization – the networks, promoters, fighters, and sanctioning bodies would have to all work together (I disagree that the belt issue isn’t a big one, it requires too much attention to expect people to learn that convoluted situation, and you just can’t expect casual viewers to spend that time. It will just turn them off). I’m not holding my breath.
YoungDonDraper - February 15, 2012
To be honest
Im just glad it’s still legal
nickfoxx - February 15, 2012 via mobile
Yup. Scott’s got a huge major point, if you’re offering entertainment and nobody watches or buys, well, there goes that idea. On the other hand, my first instinct is leave it slightly under the radar. If people start watching it a lot, naysayers and safety huns will start hammering on it, and there goes boxing, is my fear. Damned if you do, damned it you don’t situation.
BoxAnne - February 15, 2012
James, a truly excellent article, and very well-written.
I agree with you, and at various times have thought about all the same points you bring up, and probably even ranted about a few of them on one thread or another in the past.
Old guys like me should always think twice before we say anything that starts with some variant of "Back in the old days … " or "When I was your age … ", because after a while we start to wonder if we’ve lost the ability to distinguish having a point from intellectual rigor mortis.
However, having said that, I’ve been a boxing fan since 1963 or so, and when I remember what made so many more people fans all those years ago, it seems obvious to me that the points you touch on are many (though not all) of the reasons why this is so. Inaccessibility (the economics of this would be a separate discussion), massive gaps between a given fighter’s appearances), promotional selectivity and other shenanigans, and multiple inexplicable “championships” and the ensuing chaos and confusion.
From my personal observation, I would also add, as I’ve babbled about before, the meteoric rise among combat sports enthusiasts in the teens-30s demographic of MMA as “real” fighting. The structure and conduct of the UFC have helped, because one of the few good points about authoritarianism is that, depending on who’s in charge, there’s there is relatively little ambiguity, and everyone has to toe a common line.
I would also point out, in passing, that every time we here at BLH watch a fight, we of necessity spend an inordinate amount of stomach-churning time worrying aloud about how the refereeing and judging will go.
Anyway, really great piece.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
This needs to be the number one issue in boxing, not Pac V May
Boxing has been totally mismanaged over the last 20 odd years. The promoters and sanctioning bodies are to blame. The fans are there, hundreds of millions of people worldwide love to watch a fight.
The sport has so much going for it. The action in the ring, the stories outside of it. The huge purses, the theater of the weigh in and stare down. Boxing, unlike a lot of other sports that nowadays are more mainstream, is unique in its ability to create hype and capture public interest.
Put it all together and think logically about the decline in interest…
Like I said, totally mismanaged.
caligula. - February 15, 2012
BTW
HBO and others putting fights up on Youtube is a great step in the right direction.
caligula. - February 15, 2012
I’ve often thought that posting fights a day or two after they occur would be a great way to lure more people to boxing.
Hardcore types, or anyway consistent boxing fans, want to see fights live, and I would guess (yes, just a guess) that these people will shell out the money for tickets or PPV anyway. The “curious,” on the other hand, may read about a fight the next day, and want to see it, and that might very well infect some them with the disease, so that they, too, would become members of the paying hardcore.
Also, it drives me nuts how, when I want to get ready for an upcoming fight, I go to youtube to find past fights, and can’t find them.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
Interestingly, the most watched fights last year amongst the people I work with (very much casual fans) were the Tyson Fury ones on Channel 5. I don’t know how the situation is in the states as regarding free to air fights, but those really seem to have caught a bit of attention over here.
gravydeath - February 15, 2012
The reality is this. For the faint of heart, it’s a barbaric sport, for the blood/knockout thirsty fight fans, it’s not violent enough like MMA. That’s why I think Floyd Mayweather is great for boxing, because he’s in the middle – He’s using the sweet science and when you watch him you can understand his talent.
Guys who just throw punches? Most people would rather watch Chuck Lidell swing for the fences.
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
As a casual fan of MMA but a former rabid martial arts enthusiast, I think that MMA is extremely subtle, and requires quite a bit of knowledge to fully appreciate. Also, after talking with many students, it seems to me that movies and gaming feature martial arts rather than boxing as the definitive picture of what fighting is about. And, as we all learned starting in the early 1990s, an actual fight will end up on the ground 80 – 90% of the time. These things resonate with that younger demographic.
Having said that, there is a minimalist beauty in watching a great boxer, whether a technical “boxer” or an aggressive puncher, utilize the clearly delineated set of legal skills in boxing with mastery.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
Sorry; meant as a reply to RyanSexton’s insightful comment.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
I love your sarcasm – I like the Jiu-Jitsu/Wrestling aspect of MMA but the striking standing up is often inferior to boxing punches, and the kicks rarely land. The ground and pound is disturbing.
I’m an avid fan of both, but I’m simply saying that boxing isn’t as understood because people think it’s just punching. I’ve talked to a few MMA guys and they say boxing is harder because you can’t just go nuts.
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
In fact, I wasn’t being at all sarcastic, even if some of my remarks were hard to take seriously in any other way; I meant them.
I also meant what I said about your insightfulness. I apologize if it came across otherwise.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
Yeah I thought Ryan's comment was pretty insightful too.
I’ve never really considered boxing being somewhere between the (seeming) absolutes of Non-Violence at one end of the scale, and MMA at the other. I suppose I’ve always put boxing on the same level as MMA on that scale, but now I think about it, it’s actually nowhere near as ‘violent’.
Good stuff. Food for thought.
Olbas - February 15, 2012
Thanks, Olbas. I’m not sure, but it may have been my “minimalist” remark that sounded a bit “off.”
I was thinking of the beauty of taking a few tools, and using them to their maxima. I spent some years learning about this in painting, poetry, and bonsai. Suggesting worlds with the stroke of a pen, brush, word, or punch.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
Sorry. Sometimes Scott rides my back on virtually anything I say, so I get my back up when people say stuff like that. It’s all good, we’re pals.
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
That Scott. He’s such a Cruella.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
Sometimes.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
On the upside, one thing I notice—not in a big way, but noticeable—is a rise in boxing-related themes in tv ads for various products: There was for a while a bite-size shredded wheat commercial featuring teeny bites in a ring, complete with Buffer’s “Let’s get ready for breeeaaakfaaast,” and currently there’s some kind of business commercial showing suits in a ring, gettng KD’d and one rising up to fight on. This was unheard of as far as I’m aware 5 years ago.
BoxAnne - February 15, 2012
Been noticing it a lot too. Maybe a gatorade commercial or something else is on too. Maybe even a razor commercial? Hahahahha.
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
Video games are also another culprit. Sure, Fight Night Champion has some good current boxers, but too much emphasis is put on the past… In Hockey games, is the focus around Bobby Orr vs Wayne Gretzky? In Baseball is it Babe Ruth vs Derek Jeter? Then why is every boxing game sold on the premise that you can use Mike Tyson against Ali?
I’d love for there to be the top 15 fighters in at least the rounded up classes (Combine Light Welter with Welter). Here is a list of the current Welterweights:
Emanuel Augustus, Timothy Bradley, Julio César Chávez, Miguel Cotto, Oscar De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton, Thomas Hearns, Kendall Holt, Zab Judah, Ray Leonard, Shane Mosley, Victor Ortíz, Manny Pacquiao.
Of the Full Welterweight list, they’re missing Mayweather, Berto, Jones and Brook. In the Light Welter, they’re missing Peterson, Khan, Maidana, Alexander and Soto. This might not seem like a huge deal, but it seems absurd that boxers are neglected out of video games. I’m certain Mayweather was left out for a good reason (because he probably wanted their whole budget to be given to him) but certainly the rest could be available.
Light Heavyweight has 4 people in it, assuming it could be combined with Super Middle Weight, they’re missing out on a tonne of good fighters…Pascal, Cloud, Cleverly for LHW, and for SMW Ward, Froch, Bute, Kessler, Pavlik, Johnson. Etc.
It sounds silly, but really video games can get people into a sport.
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
I also really like this comment.
Some really good stuff in this thread.
Olbas - February 15, 2012
I agree that video games could also help draw in more fans, particularly in the younger age groups (although a regular gamer’s average age is in the mid-30’s according to the video game industry). Although like you say it sounds silly, the video game industry as a whole actually sells more copies and generates more revenue than Hollywood movies, so it isa huge market.
Regarding your complaint about a lack of current boxers in the Fight Night games, I agree with you, at least in the two last iterations of Fight Night you get mostly past legends with only a few current boxers here and there in each weight class. As for why that happens in boxing and not in other sport games like the Madden series or NHL, or the MLB The Show, the answer is player’s unions, according to one producer of the Fight Night series. For all the team sports the game producers deal with the league directly and once the license is granted the player’s union is on board with it, and once that happens every player member of the union automatically gets included. So basically it is a direct one on one negotation between the game company and the league so they can include all the official stuff like stadiums, player info, logos, etc. For boxing due to the lack of a central organism or boxers union they have to deal with each boxer directly or with the family of the boxer (if the boxer is deceased). According to him this is a royal pain the ass because while some boxers are pretty accessible and easy to get their permission to be included, a lot of the boxers never reply back to the request (they simply don’t care or are interested in appearing in it), also of those interested each has different demands to grant their permission. While some agree without asking anything in return or asking something reasonable, others simply demand too much. So given that environment I don’t think we’ll get a full roster of current boxers anytime soon.
leo_solis - February 15, 2012
Yeah, I understand, but it is definitely a shame because there are current fighters being overlooked. I mean, it would only take 7 out of the top 10 of every other weight class to make me happy.
I’m 21 years old, so I’d say my experience is reflected in the target audience. I grew up on boxing movies on American Thanksgiving with my dad, but never really watched any real fights. I loved the Rocky Movies, and when I was 10 or 11 I watched Ali in the theaters. My old man had a heavy bag and speed bag, and me and my cousins/neighbours all got boxing gloves and would beat eachother up in my backyard. I started boxing when I was 11 or 12, and was mostly neglected at my gym while other kids with more athleticism were focused on, most of which have moved onto MMA (Which is great and I’m proud of them.) and ultimately I quit after about 9 months of being just as bad at boxing. I also loved boxing games, the fight nights, especially 3, 4 and Champion… Loved the movie The Fighter when I saw it, and I decided that I really like boxing (Though, I always did like it, just never really got into it.) Since then, I’ve been training again, watching lots of boxing YouTubes (Another great post above about how awesome that is) at my midnight shift job, reading this blog, and watching whatever a stream-site can find me on the weekend afternoons.
But let’s be real, I’m going out of my way to watch boxing, and I’m someone that always loved boxing. For the majority of people it’s hard to care about it because boxing isn’t encouraged. Even kids that have my shared experience will find going to a bar to watch a UFC a lot easier, or as I’m doing right now, watching Spike TV’s reruns on UFC Unleashed.
Boxing needs unity, needs motivation, needs to be put on a regular American network at a regular American time. Saturday at midnight for a main event sucks. I also like the idea of Sunday afternoon fights.
UFC also has an interesting youth demographic – Jocks, work out dummies, nerdy kids (not anime nerdy, but… sport stat nerdy), Pajamas Pant Skateboarder types, the regular joe, etc. UFC has taken number one in emphasized masculinity, and that puts boxing where?
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
Agree with your overall sentiment and your tought’s about regarding that the sport needs more unity and be on regular TV as much as possible if it wants to be relevant again, unfortunately unity is one thing that I believe is probably at it’s lowest point in history in the sport (just look at the feud between Top Rank and Golden Boy). It is a sport were everyonbe looks after its own, and that gets reflected with the lack of available shows. No onbe wants to take the risk or make the big investment that would be necessary to put more good fights on regular tv. Everyone involved would have to lose money in the short term and therefore no one is willing to bite that bullet in hopes of future gains.
leo_solis - February 15, 2012
NBC is featuring 8 or so more fights—Duva’s Main Events’s Fight Night series—with Zab Judah vs. Vernon Paris coming up next on March 24. I think, tho not sure, that there are six more dates over the course of this year. Free, basic cable live fights. So that’s a step in the right direction.
BoxAnne - February 15, 2012
They have four shows this year. The January show, the March show, one in June, one in December.
Scott Christ - February 18, 2012
thanks, not as many as I’d thought, but still network tv, and 1/4 of them were pretty good. And the next one looks pretty good on paper, featuring names a few people would recognize no matter what I personally think of Judah, etc.
BoxAnne - February 18, 2012
When you step back and consider all of the crap that boxing fans have to put up with, it’s kind of amazing that it even enjoys whatever popularity it’s got left. It’s always associated with horse racing when people talk about fallen sports, but at least boxers aren’t bred and trained pretty much exclusively on casino revenues shunted over by the states.
I do think the Saturday night is for fighting attitude hurts a lot. Carving out a cable night during the week would be great (TNT-which does the Lord’s work with the NBA-and HBO are both owned by Time Warner), but I’d be happy to start just with weekend afternoon shows. Not the big ones, of course-but some network who needs counterprogramming picking up a series instead of bull fighting or whatever. Having a good fight to flip to during the first quarter of a sleepy NFL game wouldn’t be a bad start.
Slowka - February 15, 2012
The top guys don’t fight each other, yet everybody’s a “champion.” All of this “diamond champion” and “interim champion” and “intergalactic champion” nonsense shows you just how little respect the sanctioning bodies have for their own sport.
The real power brokers of the sport— the promoters— do absolutely NOTHING to promote the long-term growth of the sport and do absolutely everything to maximize their short-term profits. The sport’s biggest star is an insufferable jackass. The sport’s glamor division (HW) is completely devoid of talent. It’s a rough time to be a boxing fan, no doubt about it.
SilverLaker - February 15, 2012
Bingo
That says it all for me. When the “champions” of a sport act like chicken-shits, you’re going to see a decline.
I don’t fully buy the Saturday scheduling argument. God invented the DVR to free us all. I, and millions of others, use the DVR for boxing, football, and a host of other sports we want to see AFTER we’ve gone surfing, banged the girlfriend, or whatever. It’s not hard to do, nor is it hard to avoid the score/outcome. Just sayin’.
ShrinkRap - February 17, 2012
If you want a place in the U.S. that still loves boxing, come to Brooklyn. I have never seen an MMA event promoted with posters in Brooklyn subway stops. For boxing, it happens all the time. At my local liquor store, every time I walk in to buy a six pack, the owner asks me about the most recent fight or about my opinion on the next one, or (not as much fun) whether or not Mayweather will ever fight Pac. The same is true at a local soul food restaurant, where I frequently banter about boxing with the owner and a waiter.
Boxing comes up fairly often and randomly on the subway. A few block up the street from where I live, on the corner of Nostrand and Fulton in Bed-Stuy, there is a billboard that is often taken over by the face of either Zab Judah or Floyd Mayweather Jr. I have never seen MMA on a giant billboard.
When I am in D.U.M.B.O., I sometimes stop by Gleason’s gym, where there are people sparring and talking about boxing. My friend Jonathan Ames game a reading a couple years ago in Cobble Hill. He introduced me to his publisher, and we started some small talk. He asked what I do, and when I told him I teach writing and lit at Yeshiva U. in Manhattan, he had no reaction. When I told him about my recent book, he seemed uninterested. When I mentioned that I occasionally wrote for Bad Left Hook, he got very excited, started proclaiming his love for boxing and the site and said he was eager to read my stuff. This kind of thing happens pretty often.
There are still places in the U.S. where boxing is revered. Brooklyn is one of them, and I suspect the reason is because we have a very international and pretty well integrated community.
Matt Miller - February 15, 2012
Ah, Brooklyn, my hometown. I grew up in East NY, on Pine Street, between Pitkin and Glenmore Avenues. I would take the A or E train, back then, at the Euclid Ave. station.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
I live on the A/C line myself, a block from the Clinton/Washington stop.
Matt Miller - February 15, 2012
Clinton/Washington had been on my way. I’d go up to 57th Street, and walk to Lincoln Center. Later, when a girlfriend lived in Park Slope, I’d catch the F. I can’t remember the stop, though; it’s been a long time.
DrRck - February 15, 2012
That’s really cool, I wish we had that here (Niagara Falls, Ontario), but we haven’t had a boxer since… Billy Irwin, and I don’t think he was even popular to the locals back then.
RyanSexton - February 15, 2012
When we have discussions like this about plight of boxing, I often feel like we’re approaching it all the wrong way—treating boxing as an "American sport" like baseball or basketball (yes, I know these sports are somewhat popular internationally as well, but you know what I mean).
Wouldn’t it be wiser and more accurate to discuss its popularity more the way we would, say, soccer? In practice this would mean less of a focus on U.S. PPV numbers and more discussion of international figures, gates, and broadcasts. Now, I’m guessing international numbers for viewership are harder to find and this is easier said than done, but I do think that even the most seasoned fans usually discuss boxing’s popularity with the implicit comparison to more specifically American popular sports.
It would be a massive research project, but I would love to see someone come up with a realistic estimate of how boxing audiences have risen and fallen from an overall international perspective, one that doesn’t focus mainly on the American outlook.
Matt Miller - February 15, 2012
Well Matt, although there are MANY places on Earth where boxing is way more popular than it is in the States, I’ll give you an example on how its popularity is affected worldwide by some of the stuff that goes down in the boxing business in the US.
Following a sudden surge of popularity for boxing last summer, a few local basic cable channels decided to spend some good money to provide the boxing public with free broadcasts of major boxing matches from the US.
So lo and behold, we suddenly had free live coverage of all the major US fights INCLUDING MAJOR PPVs (that’s right, all of it free of charge on basic cable). I found myself in boxing heaven overnight.
So what did the very new and overnight boxing audience get over a span of a few months?
Just about the time it was starting up, we got the wonderful and inspiring Paul Williams – Erislandy Lara. A perfect match for a first time boxing audience to really get a feel for what the sport is all about.
We also got that marvelous Amir Khan – Zab Judah tornado of action where Judah quit after a few minutes because he just didn’t feel like fighting. That was worth the wait long into the night.
And if the public was still confused by exactly how legitimate a sport boxing is, we got the very popular Mares – Agbeko 1 fiasco – try explaining that to a first time boxing viewer.
But it was all alright, at least we were heading towards the major PPV event in September, a fight marketed so highly, the return of the great Mayweather (against Victor Ortiz), the artist, the ultimate boxer. I will let you guess how well that went over with the viewers.
But wait !!! It gets better !!! The next fight to be televised was the very formidable Bernard Hopkins vs Chad Dawson main event. After the (quick) ending, the commentators were LITERALLY APOLOGIZING TO THE AUDIENCE FOR THE SPORT OF BOXING.
I am not even going to go into the Pacquiao – Marquez match. Suffice to say every single person I watched the fight with that night guaranteed they would never watch a single boxing match again in their life.
(I haven’t even mentioned a few of the fight cancellations such as Maidana-Guerrero and the disappointing endings such as Berto-Zaveck)
I am going to let you guess whether there are any more boxing events being broadcast on TV in 2012.
Radu - February 16, 2012
There were some good fights that went down during that span too, but yeah, that was a crappy stretch of missed opportunities, to say the least. I watched all of those and was disappointed or outraged (Williams / Lara) just like it sounds like you were. Not sure what this has to do with my original point, though. You don’t think I’m not aware of this stuff, right?
Matt Miller - February 16, 2012
I just very well see it going to more of a league outlook. With the success of the UFC, I think promoters are going to see the benefits of leagues. But then again, divisions are the name of the game, but I don’t see this in the short term.
#Note: Could this be made a FanPost? It’s a great discussion and certainly more people have more outlook on revitalizing boxing, but it’d be better to last a week on the fan posts than half a day on the main stretch.
RyanSexton - February 16, 2012
+1
Radu - February 16, 2012
+1 on making it a FanPost, that is - or linking to it in the FanPost section
Radu - February 16, 2012
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